Episode 80:
March 8 Episode 80:
We welcome our old friend Tony Ortega back to talk about the current state of scientology, their ongoing financial crimes and the devastation COVID 19 has wrought on their information control.
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View Documents (11)
Battlefield Scientology
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The Unbreakable Miss Lovely
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The Miscavige Pandemic Bulletin
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Scientology "Stay Well" booklets
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Scientology Decon 7 Hazmat outfits
The "insider" Blog Posts
There are a series of these posts at Tony Ortega’s blog
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The Chase Wave
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Bert Schippers on The Aftermath
Season 3 Episode 5 Ideal Orgs
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NY Org Leak
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Mark Fladd on The Aftermath
Season 3 Episode 6 The Collection Agency
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Efrem Logreira
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120 Comments
Love the show! Having Tony on made me think of a question: could you talk about how you got from a place where you hated (or disliked) him because of your Scientology beliefs to a place where you thought highly of him and valued his contributions? I think especially in these times, it’s important to acknowledge that people we may have disagreed with before can eventually align with us for the same cause, especially if one of us has shifted our ideas. I find it so hard to do this myself and thought maybe others feel the same sometimes? Could you speak about how you shifted this opinion of Tony and came to terms with the fact that he wasn’t maybe as “evil (read: suppressive)” as you once perceived him to be? Or just in general, how did you come to terms or what actions/mindsets did you have to employ to shift your view on something that may have been terrible to you before but is now valuable to you?
Seems like the bull bait concept regarding Covid would be a good news story for some journalist. Imagine if any other denomination leader disbelieved in it.
Well, this was a really insightfull and good to listen to episode. They all are, but I really enjoyed this one, as it showed what’s going on inside on a day-to-day basis.
Thankx!
In one episode, it was mentioned that you could join Amazon Smile and donate to the Aftermath Foundation with every purchase. I immediately signed up, but I have not heard it spoken of in the podcast since. It might be worth mentioning it in a episode every once in a while, because it is an easy way for people asking what they can do to contribute.
Thank you for all you are doing. You should be proud of yourselves, and know how inspiring you are!
How does David justify his asthma? Shouldn’t he be able to heal himself if he was a “good” Scientologist?
Leah & Mike – another great episode! On the most recent listener questions podcast episode comments I had asked you both to weigh in on Tony’s recent reporting and it turns out you had an entire episode in the works on that very topic! Tony’s reporting is incredible, and we as listeners really benefit when you both offer your unique perspectives about some of this new information coming out.
Mike, I had also read your blog posts from your insider in the NY Org, which is also fascinating stuff. At what point does the church step in to prop up these failing Orgs financially? It is shocking that they have so few auditing hours that they cannot even pay the utility bills. Any thoughts on how any of the other smaller Orgs can still be afloat at all, given this prime outpost in the largest city in the US is such an utter failure?
Mike and Leah,
I have been binge listening to your podcast and I also follow the both of you on social media. My question is if scientologists are not supposed to be on the internet, why in the fbomb is Kirstie Alley commenting about the Ukraine and verbally attacking Leah and even her former DWTS partner Maksim on Twitter which is technically part of the internet. By the way Leah I am also surprised she hasn’t blocked you as that she blocked me back in 2016 when I called her out for supporting Trumpturd after the whole “grab her by the p***y” scandal. You are my hero for calling her out on her hypocrisy.
Love you both and I have learned so much from the work you are doing. It scares me a little that I have picked up the scientology jargon and really understand what you are talking about before having it explained.
I’m sure this has been asked already, but what if David Miscavige was hit by a car tomorrow and died? Would that be the end of Scientology? Or is there a lineup of lunatics ready to step in and take his place? Tom Cruise perhaps?
I’m a huge fan of you both, and listen /watch all that you do. I have read most autobiographies on scientology, including yours Leia. I was wondering if Mike had any plans to document his life story, good and bad? I would love to hear your experiences.
Thanks Pamela
Edinburgh, Scotland.
Read the Miscavage covid bulletin. Not only is Decon7 hazardous but Ozone! As a heating & air specialist, I can tell you without a doubt that ozone is highly caustic, causes lung damage and cancer. The ozone generators they are using are completely dangerous to people who breathe it within mere minutes. The space must be completed aired out thoroughly for hours. The military is using ozone generators to sterilize against covid…however they have a strict protocol. The area must be completely sealed (as in a room), run time, fresh air exchange requirements, etc. Highly concerning. Truly hope they have hired professionals to do this but have a suspicion they bought the equipment and are running it themselves like cleaning with decon7.
Mike and Leah,
Do you ever become desensitized by the fair gaming that is directed towards you and your family? If so, when did you experience that?
A suggestion for a podcast topic: please dive into the connections between Scientology-teachings and occultism, Crowley, OTO, etc.
I would like to learn more about those, as LRH claimed to be source to everything, but I’ve read he had been involved with “black magic” and stole a lot of ideas from this?
Hi Leah and Mike!
HUGE fan.
I’m a never in, but I have a question for you both: I know you’re not mental health professionals, but do you think it’s possible that David Miscavige has a mental illness (Bi-Polar Disorder, OCD, etc.) that because of his Scientology beliefs would never seek treatment for? His erratic and violent behavior are disturbing to say the least, and indicates some larger issue at play.
Also just want to say that I, like many others, am a fan of Mike getting emotional on the show, my favorite thing is when he laughs like a naughty school boy (Like on Aaron Smith-Levins episode discussing his Scientology neighbor). Thanks!
I watch lots of YouTube videos about Scientology and recently I’ve been seeing lots of Marty Rathbun videos come up where he trashes Mike and Leah. I thought he left Scientology and was a friend? What is he doing? Did he go back? I mean, they don’t take people back once you leave do they? I’m confused by him.
Hi Mike!
Why no podcast this week? It’s one of the few things I look forward to in life!
Love to you all and keep fighting! I’ll keep supporting you and Leah and all of the amazing people who you work with.
Lydia xx
For some reason this episode will not play. I have tried several times.
When will you be back? 😊😊
Your work is stupendous. You both have courage to spare. And your hearts did not harden. When is the next t one?
The courses… Are they audio files? Something to watch on video? Something to read? Combination?
This is a question for your next reader’s Q & A blog:
What will happen to all of the properties and money that scientology has ownership of when David Miscavage dies? Who are/is the beneficiaries? Will someone else just take over? How does it all end?
Thanks! Love your podcast!
I would like to start off by saying how much I admire you guys!
I got sick with Covid on January 2nd, so I had plenty of time to spare. I started watching The Aftermath on Netflix. I was floored by all of this information. I had no idea about Scientology. I just knew that Tom Cruise, Danny Masterson (I knew about the allegations because I watched The Ranch) and John Travolta were Scientologists.
After watching the Aftermath, that enticed me to start googling. I came across the podcast! I quite literally just listened to every single podcast episode in a little less than 3 months. That’s including listening to the audiobook of Troublemaker, watching The Aftermath and Going Clear in those 3 months.
I want to help in some way. I just don’t know how. I know you get this all the time but I’m going to try and think. I have been trying to share the information with friends and family, because if I didn’t know…there has to be others that still don’t know. People that can actually do something.
I used to work at the IRS but it was just a seasonal position. It was data entry mostly. I’m assuming that there has been discussions with the IRS Commissioner? Again, I’m trying to figure out how I can contribute. Mike and Leah, you two are doing an amazing job!! ❤️
The question that kept coming to me while watching and listening to everything was how can these celebrities (like John Travolta, Tom Cruise) still stay in when they see all of these policies in action? Policies like disconnection and fair game…which cause so much heartache. I know I’m just an outsider looking into this Scientology bubble, but they have to know it’s wrong. How do they sleep at night?
Thank you for taking the time to read from your cheerleaders! Love you guys!!!
Sarah Staley from Kingsburg, California
Hi Mike and Leah,
I have been catching up on all your podcasts and I have a few questions and comments – I apologize if this has come your way before.
1 – I know you have consulted attorneys, why have they turned you down? Are they afraid of fair game tactics?
2 – We enjoy and laugh with you at some of the more strange rules and traditions of Scientology, but I would love to hear how you felt about them when you were 100% in and how and when those feelings changed for you
3 – You both, and especially Mike, seem to have an extensive vocabulary – surprising only because you both had such poor educations – how have you managed this?
4 – last, I have a suggestion. Refer to the cult as a cult or as Scientology, but I think it would be better if we stop calling it a church and stopped referring to some members as clergy – so many will misunderstand and still think of this as a religion.
Thanks in advance!
I love it.
I have a question.
If auditing is to find the original event that happened to make you act the way you are currently. I think I was called find the basic for e.g. being sad someone died. How do they rationalise that some things that happen in ‘this life’ are not going to be the basic of future lives. E.g this death of a person be responsible for future reactive minds.
You haven’t updated the podcast lately. My Tuesdays are not the same without you both. I hope you’re both well. I’ll send positive thoughts your way.
I miss you! When’s the next episode?
Wondering if last episode or you guys just taking a break ?
I don’t know if you both see these coments (Leah and Mike) but I resently started listening to your podcast from the beginning on my Audible app. I’m not much on podcasts and didn’t really even know what hey were. But I loved your show on TV and when I saw this was available I started to follow. Many times, you have both mentioned your worth, that you are still looking and searching for your worth (i’m paraphrasing, but that is the jist). I wanted to say, I have never been in a situation even remotely as controlling and frankly scary as either of you. Besides just being fascinated with how these cults work, like staring at an accident site, there is way more for me in listening to your podcast. It is your courage to go forward every day, moving one step further away form your own bad experience. This translates to me at least in my life as well. We have some issues, we make decisions and we move forward. You can not change the past, but what you do with the future is yours!!! I find you both totally inspiring in my own more traditional life. I am a realtor in Northern NJ, and my biggest challenge is not getting crazy about the inconsiderate way people act and drive around here. I’ll take that anyday over being controlled. You make me appriciate the little things in my life that maybe I wouldn’t have. So thank you and I am here in NJ rooting for your sussesses every day!
I didn’t spell check before sending! I’m a realtor who is a horrible speller….appologies! lol
I need to start by saying I have never been in a cult or controlling religion. I watched The Aftermath and was delighted to find your podcast. Your podcast has helped me come to terms with a lot of trauma from my past and confront the people responsible. Thank you for the honest conversation and not pulling back from sensitive topics. Thank you for all you do that we (general public) don’t know about. I’m hopeful for the day Scientology has its reckoning.
Was episode 80 the last one?
Hi Leah and Mike. Tony Ortega is a great guest. I love listening to the podcast, and I seriously cannot wait for the next episode. I love listening as much as I loved your TV show. Please keep it up!!
Playing devils advocate for this first question. I was wondering, if Miscavige ever renounced Scientology and came to you guys/the Aftermath foundation, how would you approach him? And also, have you considered having any “free-zone” Scientologists on your podcast? I’ve found a few interviews online of former members of the CoS who still practice and believe in the OT levels, despite being outside of the traditional Scientology hierarchy, and figured they would be a great guest if you could get them on. Thanks, and love you guys so much
Where did ya’ll go?? I look forward to your upload every week. I have been lost. Miss you guys! Keep up the great work!
What is happening with the Podcast? There hasn’t been an episode in 4 weeks now since March. Did Scientology get you shut down?
I was the victim of religious/church abuse and listening to you each week has brought me so much hope. I miss you and Leah’s podcast so very much – is everything ok? Will you be back soon?
Thank you for your dedication, Mike. I am praying for you and Leah 🙏💚
I have finally caught up on the podcast and I was wondering when the next episode will be released?
I was just wondering where the podcast is. When will the next episode air?
Please tell me that your podcast isn’t ending? I miss you both!
Are the podcasts returning?
Here’s a question for a future Listener Questions episode:
Have you seen the HBO documentary Leaving Neverland? It explains how Michael Jackson used money and fame to get away with abusing children. Can you speak on the parallels with how Scientology operates, and how money and fame insulate celebrities who are abusive?
Follow-up question: Michael Jackson married Lisa Marie Presley within months of being accused of child molestation, and his critics think he used her to save his public image. Reportedly Lisa Marie was an active Scientologist at that time – do you know if Scientology was involved in either encouraging or discouraging her to marry Jackson? Hypothetically, if a Scientologist told their auditor they were considering marrying an accused child molester, how would that be handled?
Thanks for all the important work you do!!
When will there be a new episode? Are you guys okay?!
When is your next podcast????
I am missing this show. Please tell me y’all are just on hiatus. Please 🙏🏼
There has not been a new episode since Tony Ortega was on. What’s happening?
Whens the next episode?
Is this the last episode?
I listen to the podcast every week. What’s going on ?
I just haven’t seen a new episode in quite awhile and wanted to make sure that y’all are ok.
When is your next episode going to be released? Missing my weekly podcast!
Hi Leah, Hi Mike!
3 questions for your next listener questions episode – apologies if these have been asked/answered before.
1. (This is kind of hypothetical so just go with me) – What would happen if I, or we as a country, just upped and decided not to pay any taxes until the IRS revoked Scientology’s exempt status? What do you think would happen? How many people would it take going “We’re not paying taxes, until you guys revoke their status” to make an impact?
2. I just re-watched Going Clear on HBOMax today and it’s just…. I just wish EVERYONE would watch it. I wish they would watch The Aftermath as well. About half way through the doc they get into both the IRS “we won the war” party AND the whole concept of fair game. And then I had a thought, and I know you guys have talked about it extensively but I was thinking about it and I’m curious, have you or Leah (or anyone else close to you that you know for that matter) experienced any hardcore fair-gaming SINCE starting this crusade 6/7 years ago? Like have you had anything significant happen to you guys recently?
3. This is just for Mike and has nothing to do with Scientology really – what was your best memory of “RAD”-elaide? Where did you used to hang out and were you a crows fan or a port fan ?? 🙂 Also, is there still a Scientology building in Adelaide?
As always, love you guys really and support you always. Keep on Truckin!
Jane
When is the podcast coming back?
My curiosity about Scientology was first piqued reading Lawrence Wright’s article in the New Yorker back in 2011. I’ve recently binged all of Aftermath on Netflix and the Scientology: Fair Game podcast and I’m wondering what parallels you see between today’s Q-Anon followers & other cult behaviours you’ve witnessed, and if you see any other trajectory for the believers caught in the swift current pulling them further and further from reality
Question for listener questions: Isnt the IRS declaring tax exemption for Scientology a slippery slope? Whats stopping say Weight Watchers from declaring themselves a religion? You have to buy their educational materiel, pay to go to their meetings and for their “counseling”. There are a ton of businesses that are basically the same as Scientology.
Not related to this episode, but when is the next episode coming?
Is the podcast canceled? No new episodes in a month
When will we get new episodes? You guys are my favorite and I would love more!
Is this the final episode?? Has the podcast been cancelled??
When are you guys coming back.
Missing my favorite podcast – hope you will be back soon.
Wishing you both well, hope new episodes are coming soon
Dumb question, but has the podcast completely finished? I seem to have missed any announcement and can’t find any information anywhere.
Guys, where are you!??
Was this the last podcast? I listen on Spotify and haven’t seen a new in 2 weeks – hoping it’s a spring break and not gone for good!
Love you both!!
Where are you guys? Miss you. It’s been a month! I hope everything is ok. I listen to you while I work. I grew up with a Narcissist Father that had a tiny “following” so I understand a bit. I find Leah’s energy, no-nonsense attitude empowering. I always thought that she is funny actress, but I admire the real Leah even more.
By the way. I have a friend who is bipolar. Few months ago I she was Bakeracted. I’ve heard from her mom that she met a Scientologist at the mental hospital. My friend did not tell me exactly who this person was, however she mentioned that she’s looking into other non medical (no medication) approach. Recently she told me that she was in the Clearwater and had a session. They have no shame to recruit in mental hospitals
Love ya!
Anna
Hello my name is Devin. I have more of a question then I do a comment. So I have watch the TV documentary you guys have done and recently started to listen to this podcast. My question is do you think the cult of scientology would ever pull a Jonestown Massacre kind of move? In my opinion both are equally scary and I was just curious. Love the work you guys do to bring this to the publics attention. Keep doing it and keep fighting.
Best wishes Devin
When will there be more podcasts?
Are you guys still recording?
When will the next episode be?
Missing the podcast that I look forward to listening to on Spotify, haven’t heard a new one for weeks now have you moved? Please tell me where I can listen to you.
Lisa McCarty
Love your podcast! Where are you? Is it coming back?
I know I’m being terribly selfish, but please have another episode after number 80. I am sure that what you both are doing takes a lot out of you, but I beg for a little more.
Question: who audits David Miscavige, or does he do himself?
Question: Miscavige calls himself COB; does that have anything to do with the fact that that was Frank Sinatra’s nickname; another “short” ( though taller than Dave) man’s perception of himself when trying to appear big, bad, and hyper-masculine to the outside world?
Love you both, and everyone you love.
There have been no new podcasts for some time. Will they return? I miss you guys!
I miss your podcast. It is so educational, I really hope you bring it back soon!
Where are you guys. I miss my Tuesday show. I hope you have not stopped taping. Love you.
Are you all on a break? Wondering when new episodes will be available
Hey I love your ur pod (and I Lov People Puzzler😜)
What to you two have to say about Grant Cordone and why is ok for his wife to dress like that is it just cuz hes rich?
I miss this podcast-appears episode 80 is the last one available? When will new episodes be available?
Miss the podcast. I really hope it isn’t gone for good. I believe information is the one and only hope for ending this cult. The courts and government just aren’t the answer.
When is your podcast returning?
Hello, I know Mike endured a very traumatizing event with his description of the musical chairs incident. I don’t want to even imagine what other abuses he’s endured. What has he done to help get over that trauma and does he have any other health issues (such as PTSD, stress, anxiety etc) as a result?
Was this the last podcast. You guys have not aired anything in a couple of months. Just wondering when you guys will be back.
What’s happened to the podcast? Worried about you guys.
I am a big fan of the podcast! I wanted to submit a question for the next viewer questions episode. So here it is.
Why is Scientology so hell bent on defending/protecting Danny masterson? As his case keeps moving forward police keep finding more and more. There are multiple victims, civil suits, and criminal charges, and now a criminal trial. Which is all pretty compelling evidence of his guilt. For an organization that’s all about good PR at all costs wouldn’t it just be easier for them to kick Danny out and wash their hands of him, rather then continue to deal with the on going lawsuits and criminal trial, and all the survivors speaking out?
Thanks for all you do, and keep fighting the good fight against Scientology!!!
I love the listener question podcasts. I have two questions.
1. Are the children/grandchildren/great-grandchildren of L. Ron Hubbard in Scientology? Why or why not? What has become of them?
2. Has Andy Dick ever been a Scientologist? I went to a Leadership Series event, and he was a guest speaker. After watching “The Aftermath” and listening to your podcast, I was reminded of this event because there was a series of lessons with price lists. No, I did not sign up and left before it was over.
Will there be more episodes?
What happened to your podcast?! It just disappeared without any mentions about taking a break or ending it anywhere that I can find. I hope you have not been Fair Gamed off the air! Please let us know what’s happening. Love and support what you and Leah do!
Hi guys! Just wondering what’s happening with the podcast? I’ve re-listened to ep 80 to check if I missed an announcement or something but I can’t seem to find any info.
Just a general question…. when are you coming back? I miss you guys. I love Leah and wish I saw her on more regularly on my TV… She should have her own talk show.
Did your podcast get fair gamed??
I have not missed an episode, but I have missed my Tuesday listen. Not a word about why the abrupt absence following episode #80 on March 8. Any update is appreciated.
Has the show ended? I’ll be sad if it has
I love this podcast as well as the show you guys did. I haven’t seen a new episode since March 8. Are you not doing this podcast anymore? Thanks!
When is the podcast coming back?
Is this the last episode – missing my weekly cult update
Great last episode with Tony! It is May now, when will the next episode be released? We miss you guys!
Just wondering when the podcast will be back?
are you guys ok? any new pod casts or has the Walking Dead got to you?
PLEASE TELL US!! When is the next podcast?????
Hi is the podcast over are you on a break
Break
WHERE HAVE YOU GUYS BEEN? WHAT DID I MISS?
What is the status of the podcast? I didn’t catch any news of a break and/or when you guys will return.
I have a listener Question. I noticed that with most of your ex-scientology guests and you two as well, there doesn’t seem to be families that decide to have a lot of children, or any at all. do you think this has any correlation to Scientology, and if so, how?
Hi there! Your podcast has been such a joy and educational journey for me and I hoping that you will come put with new episodes soon. I’ve been looking for updates if the show was canceled but I don’t see anything. So I’m hoping no news is good news.
Best,
Sarah
Where did y’all go? 🙁
Just wondering why there isn’t anymore podcasts after this one?
Are you coming back?
Hey Leah & Mike, can you cover the Writers of the Future contest than Scientology continues to run? I first came across Scientology years ago when I was planning to enter the condition, but a former winner saw my post about it online, and warned me away. Apparently David Miscavige gut punched him for telling a joke – and this guy was NOT a scientologist. I was vulnerable at the time, and am very grateful this writer who didn’t actually know me warned me away, but I still get constant emails from the WotF organizers over a decade after telling them to never contact me again.
Could you guys look into it?
Hey guys where are you? Are you not doing the podcast anymore? I’ve been obsessively listening and I’m not coping without it 😂
MISCAVOLOGY vs SCIENTOLOGY
Since you’re trying to reveal what’s going wrong with Scientology, dear Leah, you should know that acting this way is more or less without avail.
Actually, Scientology and LRH are the wrong targets, because the only and right one has one single name: David MISCAVIGE.
Since this SP is in charge of the general management, he has systematically spoiled the genuine tech in rewriting it through this stupid “golden age”.
I’m French and started Scientology 35 years ago in a Mission hold by an auditor already not following “the right way”. He gave me all the original and stable data and has me trained only with them. Therefore I know how to apply them with efficiency and successfully in my environment.
I joined the SO in October 2001 and was immediately put on the Super Power line up. I did more than 20 courses within the first 6 month in waiting my right program (due to an auditing problem that prevented me from starting KTL and LOC). Eventually I started it after a very weird meeting with DM that led at the time to have Debbie COOK and other staffs fired (I can write a book on this incident).
By the end of 2002, as I was on the E-meter course, I spotted THE CRASHING MU at the bottom of this situation that prevented the students from completing it successfully within the cheksheet time.
Unfortunately to me, despite numerous reports to each and every appropriated terminal, this attempt to restore the tech has been the beginning of my troubles: False reports, court of justice, com ev and others “pleasant” moments have been the only answer I got. That led me eventually to resign and leave the SO by the end of June 2003.
From this date up to now, I have made my own investigations and found out lots of outpoints. I do have numerous evidences attesting beyond any doubt that DM is a CRIMINAL involved in a strategy leading to the destruction of Scientology.
In other words, I state (and can prove it) that all the ARC breaks with SCN traces to the fact that all the affected PCs (your witnesses included) have NEVER BEEN AUDITED (whatever can be their level). In applying “Miscavology” instead of Scientology, you’ll never reach the gains and levels you’ve payed for.
“Miscavology” and all the modified E-meters (since the appearance of this stupid “read amplifier”) don’t work at all and are nothing but squirreling.
THIS IS A FRAUD!
MISCAVOLOGY CAN BE DESTROYED ONLY FROM INSIDE
TAKE THE RISK TO TRUST ME AND GET IN TOUCH THROUGH MY E-MAIL: I’ll provide you with all the evidences.
When are you guys coming back? I miss your podcasts
When are you guys coming back? I’m going into withdrawals without your podcast!
Question- if Scientology teaches multiple lifetimes, then do they believe SP can become Scientologist in their next life?
I absolutely love your podcasts and am hoping that someday you will finally be able to get enough people to help shut down this horrible cult. I am hoping that your podcast will return with great news that your efforts have not gone unnoticed and the wheels have started to shutting them down.
You two are a true inspiration. Doing the good work! The work few have the guts to do. I have viewed all the episodes of Aftermath (twice) and an avid listener to this podcast. Not sure what I can do for the cause (I have “cancelled” any and all Tom Cruise movies**), but I’ll think of something. Even if you are unable to save current members, I believe you are preventing new recruits.
Keep up the good work.
What’s happened to the podcast, has it finished?
Returning soon. Stay tuned.
When will you release new episodes? I find this very fascinating. I miss you guys.
After listening to all of the podcast episodes and watching Netflix show, it becomes very clear that there is a “Hive Mind” when it comes to these cults/MLM’s. It appears that the strongest period of “Hive Mind” rule seems to be under LRH. Do you believe that the “Hive Mind” is disintegrating underneath DM’s rule? Why do you think this is?
Hi all! Has the series been cancelled? I loved listening and haven’t seen any updates, so I wanted to ask. Love to you all
Not cancelled. We will be back soon.
Yay!!