Episode 8: Fair Gaming the Scientology President’s Ex-wife

September 15 Episode 8: Fair Gaming the Scientology President’s Ex-wife
Karen de LaCarriere, ex-wife of Scientology President Heber Jentzsch, discusses the tragic death of their only child, Alexander, and the Fair Game she has had to endure.
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View Documents (6)
Karen's Surviving Scientology YouTube channel
Jeffrey's Scientology Money Project blog
Hubbard Policy "Intelligence Principles"

Hubbard describes finding “buttons” and what people are seeking to protect and using that for restraint.

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Hubbard policy "Counter Attack Tactics"

Hubbard describes costing “enemies” their jobs.

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Some of the grotesque smear sites

Scientology smear sites on Karen de la Carriere — financed by tax exempt money

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  • Sharon Malgire says:

    Leah and MIke,

    Loved the TV show, and loving the podcast too. Leah, I love that you can “express ” yourself freely on the podcast…I always giggle when you curse them out, Go Leah!!

    I have a question about scientologists raising their kids…I’ve followed your career for years and remember way back when you were on a show talking about Sophia when she was very young and having a hard time not giving her bottles, you seemed to be a very involved, dare i say over-indulgent parent and I mean that in a good way. It seems to contradict everything I’ve learned about the parent – child relationship in Scientology?? Did you just rebel against sending Sophia to be raised by Scientology? Just curious because I can tell that you have always been loving, involved parents.

    Keep up the good work, I recommend the podcast to everyone 🙂


    • Lori J says:

      I have wondered the same thing! At what age are children turned over? As a parent do you check in on them? Was the possibility of turning Sophia one of the catalysts that pushed Leah over the edge of leaving Scientology.

  • Vera says:

    I might have missed it, but why is Heber being kept prisoner?
    You guys are awesome, even if Mike talks over Leah’s compliment! 😉

  • Thomas Kelly says:

    Everything you guys have done is spectacular. Keep fighting the good fight. I’m curious though…why can’t law enforcement or the government raid the facilities where members are being held as prisoners in the dungeons, etc? Can we not get a go fund me even and hire “operatives” to go in and liberate these poor folks? Sounds extreme but it’s so maddening and frustrating to here these stories of people disappearing.

  • Rina says:

    I still can’t understand – if Scientology is not like Big Tobacco in ninetees and does not have much power outside itself, how this is still happening? How Golden base even allowed to exist? Sure, there is property law for visitors and alike, but how does government allow that? Human rights organization? Unbelievable.
    Kudos for Iheart radio to produce (or whatever the propet word is) this podcast, hope this somehow shields hosts.

  • Ann Poor says:

    I appreciate all the work you all do for this podcast. Your passion for helping others getting out of Scientology is so apparent. It is unbelievable that this all goes on.

    Thank you again Leah and Mike. Bless you both

  • john doe says:

    I hope at some points you guys will post some of the email Karen regularly gets. I knew OSA occasionally sent emails — I recall some Jeffrey/Chris Shelton podcast about that and Chris has said he gets them once in a while. Had no idea it’s constant.

  • Linda says:

    Keep up the great work Mike and Leah!
    I have seen all the movies and tv shows about Scientology so I thought there were no new stories to tell. How you both have proved me wrong.!!
    I listened to the first 6 episodes in one day. I just can’t get enough. Thank you both for all the work you are doing.

  • Lisa says:

    Mike and Leah,

    I am obsessed with all of the podcast episodes. Thank you so much for telling your stories and giving all of the survivors another platform to share theirs. Every time Leah cries, I start bawling. Thank you both for continuing to educate us.

    You make such a great team!

  • Caroline says:

    I look forward to listening every week. I’m so glad it didn’t stop at The Aftermath.

    This is heart breaking and I was tearing up when Leah expressed her compassion towards Karen. This is absolutely ludicrous. Are people not human? Where is the compassion and LOVE that should exist in this world?

    Guess what? Leah and Mike are showing it!!! Thank you both for all you’re doing to expose these CRIMINALS. Keep up the hard work! I love Leah’s spunk. You two have the perfect banter to keep people listening.

  • Joan says:

    I completely love the podcasts. I laugh, i cry and i learn. I am from South Africa and the scientologists are trying to recruit hard and fast. And ive played the after math series and now the podcast for my friends that were thinking of joining…. thank u for your love and passion the world owes every person that speaks out a debt of gratitude…your biggest fan in SA. JoanP

  • Carrie Chludzinski says:

    This podcast makes me want to do something to help and to speak out. I have no connections to Scientology, so I don’t know what I can do to help, but would be happy to.
    Blessed Be.

  • Peggy says:

    They blocked her from viewing her son’s body. Totally heartbreaking and unthinkable. Thank you for sharing your story – keep shining those lights into the darkness!!
    Leah and Mike, your podcast is the only thing I like about Tuesdays!! 😁 Thank you for speaking out and sharing these stories. God bless…

  • Fan in Quebec City says:


    Great job on the show! I’ve been reading on cults and on Scientology for a long time, so the name Marty Rathburn has been familiar to me for at least 15 years. I remembered the harassment Scientology put him through when he was out of the “Church” and the efforts he made to rebuild his afterwards. Which is why I was so devastated to learn that he had gone back to Scientology. Could you please do a future episode about him and people like him who succumb to the pressure, bullying, threats and harassment, and go back (I might be wrong, but I figure that’s why he went back)?

    Now that he went back, what kind of life do you think that he has? Do you think that he has some freedom or that he was put in the hole for having spoken against Scientology for so many years?

    Another subject that I would like to learn more about is the celebrities inside Scientology, and more specifically, do you think that some of them have realized the damage that Scientology does, but are too afraid to leave because they want to save face publicly? It might be hard for them to leave a group that they’ve defended for so many years.

    Have a great weekend! Keep up your good work!

  • Luminous says:

    I’ve been following Karen for many years, and I don’t think I’ve heard Alexander’s story told quite like this before. I had to pause for a minute to collect myself and wipe away the tears. Leah and Mike, you’re doing a wonderful job turning this pod into a compassionate space for rage, redemption, and healing–for yourselves, your guests, and maybe even your listeners, too. May this only be the beginning…

  • Lori J says:

    Another great episode! I followed Aftermath, and I’m so glad you are continuing on with Fair Game.

    Question – Mike & Leah – What was the catalyst for you to each leave scientology (notice lower case, they don’t deserve even a capital S.)

    Question – Leah – Was Angelo a Scientologist? Was your departure in time with not having Sophia “turned over”?

    I love what you are doing, keep up the great work! If it was easy , everyone would do it. You have seen how many have refused to do it….thanks for slaying the giant!

  • Andrea G. says:

    I never leave comments but listening to Karen’s story this morning left me gutted. As a parent this is the worst pain you could ever experience. My heart goes out to you Karen. Scientology should be charged in his death in some capacity, this is insane the U.S. Government is just sitting on their hands with all these horrific crimes.

  • Paul says:

    You touched on Marty Rathbun’s strange 180 – suddenly attacking those who tell the truth about Scientology, after years of speaking out against it.

    Could you make this the focus of a full episode in the near future? It would be fascinating to hear theories of how Marty could have been either wooed or strong-armed back into cooperation with Scientology.

    Keep up the great work!

  • Nicole Burkhart says:

    Hi there!

    I just want to say thank you. I first started watching Aftermath back in February. I had no idea all of these atrocities were happening in Scientology. I continue to research and listen to more stories. Even though I am not and never have been a Scientologist, I want to be an advocate.

    This story really touched my heart like so many others. I wish all of you the best, and perseverance as you push forward to ACTUALLY help others who have been victimized and terrorized by this cult.

    Thank you for being genuine and for being advocates.

  • Suzanne Gour says:

    I am listening to the podcast from the beginning, despite it now being 2021. So, late to the game!
    My question is, overall, Leah often states she believed that Scientology was going to save the planet. There was a video clip to this effect at the beginning of the “Aftermath” TV series. What exactly does that mean in her view and Mike, in your view? How does the Sea Org or Scientology as a whole propose this work? Ultimately does it mean that everyone on the planet has to endlessly be audited? I cannot see how this saves the planet or humanity.
    This ties into what T. Cruise said on the leaked video of him discussing Scientology where he states that if there is a natural disaster you want Scientologists there – what for? What does he envision (and I realize you would have to speculate on what TC is actually thinking which might not be easy or pleasant) that an auditor would do in that situation? Is it total nonsense and he knew it was when he said it or does he actually think a Scientologist could help?
    I thank you for any time you can spend on answering this for me and I will continue to listen.

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