Episode 77: Jefferson Hawkins

February 15 Episode 77: Jefferson Hawkins

We are joined by Jeff Hawkins, an extremely talented, thoughtful and articulate former Sea Org member, to recount his experiences with David Miscavige, his role in making Dianetics a bestseller again the 80’s and his journey into and out of scientology. He is the author of 3 books on the subject.

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View Documents (9)
Counterfeit Dreams

Jeff’s wonderful book on his life and leaving scientology

Leaving Scientology
Closing Minds
The Sociopath Next Door

Incredible book by Harvard Professor Martha Stout

Dianetics ad from 80's

Jeff created these ads and the campaign that launched Dianetics back onto the bestseller lists after more than 30 years

AC 360 History of Violence

Jeff was featured in the week long series by Anderson Cooper

Aftermath Episode with Jeff
Jeff's blog: Leaving Scientology

This is a great blog filled with excellent content


  • Shannon P. says:

    Have the people doing the fair gaming ever murdered anyone? Like have they run people off the road and made it look like an accident?

  • Elizabeth says:

    Evening! Was listening to this episode when I was struck by how much travel the top executives do. Who pays for that? Since most hardly make any money, when someone like Jefferson Hawkins is being sent all over, does Scientology pay for it?


  • Karen Tikalsky says:

    Random Question- off topic of this. Have you been receiving interview requests for like CNN or someone like Stephen Colbert to continue this discussion since the podcast has come out?

  • Laura Font says:

    I have many questions.

    First. Mike and Leah have said they would help any scientologist that came to them for help, even Taryn. What about Marty Rathbun?

    If scientology were to lose their tax exempt status, aside from seeing where their money goes, what would happen?? Would they have to pay back taxes for the years they got away with being tax exempt? Do you think they would start selling off properties since they would have to pay taxes on them?? How would this start the fall of scientology??

    And lastly, if psychologists and psychiatrists are mandatory reporters even with HIPAA laws, how is it that “clergy” can get away with not reporting??

  • Morgan Everitt says:

    I rewatched the show and was wondering, what has happened to Tommy Davis? Obviously he is no longer a spokesman’s and probably was sent to the hole at some point. But is he still in Scientology?

  • JJ Silver says:

    Hi, its very interesting hearing about how crazy David Miscavige gets. If someone wakes up and decides they had enough of his abuse, what is stopping them from going Mike Tyson all over Miscavige; giving him some of his own medicine? Does Miscavige have body guards next to him at all times? Is he never alone? How tight is his security? I would think this would eventually happen, unless his security is crazy tight.

  • Clara says:

    Hi guys,
    Can’t wait to hear the new episode 🙂
    Did you know that The Way to Happiness is the most translated book from the USA?
    As a translator, I am curious to know who translates Scientology policy and Hubbard’s books into other languages.
    Are the translations managed internally within Scientology or externally? Do you know anything about this?
    Keep up the good work!
    Greetings from Spain,

  • Laura Font says:

    Sorry Mikey, this question isn’t for you. It’s for Lele and your wifey Christie, and all other scientology mothers. The question was asked “is it true that during delivery, a scientology mother is to remain silent?” And the answer was yes.

    I was curious how that worked out for you Leah and Christie?? Did you get an epidural immediately, or are epidurals a no no, because of scientology anti medicine policy?? During the delivery of my second, I couldn’t not scream.

    And as a doula, Christie, does that have an impact on how you help your clients or your philosophy on birthing? Do you encourage quiet delivery, or are you like screw that shit scream all you want if that’s what it takes??

  • LaShaun says:

    Love your podcast. I am catching up and am on episode 21 (just learned about it frol Leah on one of her FB post. I watched the Aftermath as well.

    Question. How was Leah able/permitted to become an actor as a scientologist? How did that come to happen? Did they frown against it or see it as a plus (more $, more recruitment of celebrities into Scientology)?


  • Deborah Rapoport Davis says:

    I think you guys should launch a campaign for your listeners to visit all their thrift shop and buy up all the Scientology books and recycle them!

  • Kammie Gaytan says:

    I loved listening to this. Thank you. I am a physician dealing with the pandemic and it’s hard to find something meaningful to distract myself with. This issue keeps coming to my heart. I’ll find how to help.

  • Kammie says:

    Hey guys! I think I’m being inspired to help. I’m still getting info at this point. LeLe I am reading you’re book and seeing so much of myself ❤️ I just love 90s R&B gurl!!!!

    I’m a doctor so my circle of influence may help

  • BethG says:

    I think an interesting episode would be gathering the people that were on Apollo and/or knew LRH. I think hearing more about the man would help people understand how the first Sea org volunteers were manipulated and mind controlled by him into doing everything they did.

  • Jason Hobbs says:

    Has anyone ever retaliated against a physical attack by Miscavige? What happened or what would happen if they responded in kind to a blow by Miscavige? I imagine to him the hole is too good a punishment.

  • Eileen says:

    What would David Miscavige have to do to either be demoted or even kicked out of the church? What if he defamed LRH?

  • Mark Viniello says:


    I love your podcast and admire your strength and resolve. I have a question in regards to Scientology’s position on injury and sickness. Tom Cruies broke his ankle while performing a relatively simple stunt. Per Scientolgy was this his fault as a result of past transgressions? Isn’t he in the upper levels? I doubt he was reprimanded or was punished, but how des he reconcile the situation. I imagine in must require a lot of mental gymnastics? Keep up the good work! Here is a link to the article: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/tom-cruise-explains-mission-impossible-fallout-ankle-injury-1129534/

  • Cortney says:

    This episode and others have made me wonder about the awakening to Scientology being a scheme. I know that you, Mike, and others have spoken about first leaving the organization of Scientology but still believing in it for a while. I wonder if you could have an episode about how it seems that the first step is thinking the organization is bad but the next is realizing the whole “philosophy” is bunk. I’d love to hear more about that journey.

    Thank you, Mike and Leah, for being so open, brave, and determined.

  • Rabbi Eizabeth Goldstein says:

    I just watched the 2017 film on Amazon Prime–My Scientology Movie with Jeff Hawkins by filmmaker Louis Theroux—I don’t remember a podcast episode specifically on this movie but I would love to your thoughts–I thought the comedy aspect was great and wondered if you all thought it was funny–how it was experiencing Marty Rathburn in that light–I can’t ever remember you talking about the film and wonder if you don’t like it for some reason–or I may have missed an episode somewhere along the line—

  • Big H says:

    This episode is incredible – firstly how much of an idiot COS and Davey baby are for shooting their golden goose in the head, and secondly, the thought that if they hadn’t, Jeff might have brought in so many more people that we’d all need to rescue today!

    I was born in the year those volcano ads aired, and I’m not in the US, so I’ve never seen one in the wild but I still knew of them. They’re that much of a scientology meme to this day. Absolutely iconic. It’s a good thing Jeff is with the good guys these days because he’s clearly dangerous, LOL! 😉

  • Jan Shaver says:

    Are you and Leah still doing the podcast? There haven’t been any new episodes for several weeks. Miss listening to you all!!

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