Episode 53: Listener Questions 7

August 10 Episode 53: Listener Questions 7

Leah and Mike take on more listener questions: Who does the Fair Gaming? What is CCHR? How scientology views the disabled? What PTSness is. Who was the Duke of Chug? Scientology’s sense of humor… and much more. Leah and Mike even act out what happens in an auditing session.

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View Documents (10)
Dealing with Critics of Scientology
Citizen's Commission on Human Rights
Chris Owen's on CCHR
Making the able more able

The scientology mantra on why they do not spend time on the disabled

The "Degraded Being"

The definition in  the official scientology  dictionary. These are Hubbard’s words they were willing to have published. In common usage in scientology, the term is far more derogatory.

What is a PTS?
The Duke of Chug
Keeping Scientology Working
Scientology's Sense of Humor
Joker's and Degraders

Hubbard’s thoughts on the subject of humor about scientology


  • Kara says:


    I have a question – What level has David Miscavage gotten to on the bridge? Is he an OT8?


    • Steve says:

      It’s just assumed he is, it’s not a question you could ask or something that is promoted. But you assume he’s done everything on both sides of The Bridge.

      Although I totally wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t do them like everyone else. He wouldn’t want to put himself in the hands of other people, so unless he did it before clawing his way to the top, I’d guess he would just read the materials and do some secret version.

  • Stephanie says:

    I wanted to ask a question for the next Q&A episode.

    I myself am a resident of the Tampa Bay area. The Scientology community has always creeped me out, with their takeover of downtown Clearwater, and their presence in Ybor. Knowing that Flag is pillar of the organization, is there anything we can do to as locals to push back on their presence in our community?

  • MR says:

    I don’t know the official process for submitting a listener question, but I figured this is as good a place as any…

    I watched Aftermath on A&E from years ago, and have listened to all the podcasts so far. I don’t recall a discussion of Mimi Rogers, Tom Cruise’s first wife and got him into Scientology. My understandings she’s no longer with the church, and I’m not aware of any controversy surrounding her regarding her being labeled an SP or whatever. What can you tell us about her? How active was she in the church? Why (and how) did she leave? Thanks.

  • Susan says:

    Loved the Aftermath and now loving the podcast. Could you explain about how serious physical health issues (ie. Cancer) are dealt with? Is there a difference how the average scientologist and celebrities get help?

    • Steve says:

      Scientologists generally avoid modern medicine, so cancer is often caught late and “treated” with every herb, snake oil and secret Mexican treatment you can imagine. (that might sound like an odd racial thing to throw in, but there were always reports of doctors in Mexico who had left the US because they had a cure for cancer but “big Pharma” didn’t want it cutting into their profits so they were kicked out of the US).

      Then various Scientology auditing is attempted. Depends on how far up The Bridge the person was, but the cancer would always be referred to as having been “missed” in your previous auditing. So maybe if you could ask just the right question, the cancer would vanish.

      Also, I think there was some LRH reference that said that cancer was due to issues on the 2nd Dynamic (Sex, relationships, family) and I think there was something said about you trying to create another entity to fix the problems in your current relationship/family.

      So, between being told it’s because “you missed something”, or because you have something wrong on you 2nd Dynamic, you are made to feel like it’s your fault. The exact wording is “you pulled it in”, as in you manifested cancer out of thin air. So you do whatever treatment or auditing you think will help, but you keep quiet about it out of shame or to protect others from this bad news. Because bad news itself is contagious and if you make others feel bad by having cancer, that’s yet another thing you should feel ashamed off.

      When the new age medicine doesn’t work and you can’t find the subconscious thought that’s giving you cancer, you finally give in and get standard cancer treatment in a hospital. But now it’s too late. And right up to the end as you waste away in the hospital, you put on a smile and say you’re just going to “drop the body” and come back in a better body to sort this out. And the other Scientologists smile back and everybody is happy. And you die and nobody every mentions you again.

      So you don’t tend to find out when people have cancer unless they are very close to you. You grow up thinking Scientologists don’t get cancer because you never hear about it, and that feeds back into the belief in Scientology. People will literally die and you won’t hear about it. Then the bubble bursts and you find out about all this shit that’s been kept under wraps and you leave.

      I’d guess that whole scenario I just laid out is very close to how many people have left Scientology.

  • Nancy Newton says:

    Mike and Leah,
    There was a question in the latest episode regarding the education of the children. I understand that kids are not getting a formal education, but you didn’t answer the 2nd part of the question regarding testing. How does Scientology get around the mandatory state testing for homeschooling that is intended to ensure that kids are getting a well rounded education, and meeting the minimum testing standards?
    (btw, I also posted this question on Mike’s blog)


    • Steve says:

      If you never enter into the school system, it doesn’t seem to have a good way to find you. I know many, many kids who never went to a public school, or any state accredited school, and nobody ever said anything. There wasn’t even really an attempt to hide it, it was just never an issue. If you aren’t running around in the street or drawing attention, nobody cares.

      But, the complete lack of education they are referring to is just in the Sea Org. The vast majority of Scientology kids got decent elementary and middle school educations. High school was a crap shoot, probably only Delphi kids got decent high school educations. And almost nobody goes to college, that’s widely viewed as a waste of time.

      This might be controversial, but I’d say non-Sea Org Scientology kids actually have an above average early education. So much emphasis is put on ability to self study (since Scientology is a self study religion), that it is a major focus early on. The few times I was tested, I was always way ahead of state standards (at least in literacy).

  • steven trinidad says:

    Hey Guys, just checked out the CCHR website, I couldn’t believe they tried to blame Psychiatry for the Holocaust. Who are these guys they claim they are Psychiatric Doctors they have in those videos? Like Ron Leifer and Lee Coleman?

    • Steve says:

      Not sure who they have in those videos, but Scientology blames psychiatry for everything. It is literally our devil. When 9/11 happened, an internal briefing went out about how David Miscavige had done his own investigation and found which psychiatrists were behind Osama Bin Laden.

      And not just modern issues, psychiatry is the heart of all evil throughout the universe and for untold millions of years.

  • Diana says:

    I’m not sure where else to submit my questions:
    1. It seems that everyone that comes out of Scientology would be banded together in being against Scientology, but have you ever had people that came out and have been critical of you or what you’re doing?
    2. How long (or how little) does someone need to live in Brooklyn to adopt a Brooklyn accent that stays with them forever? From what I can tell, Leah moved away as a child but you can’t take the Brooklyn out of her 😉 I was also born in Brooklyn but moved away as a baby.

  • James says:

    How well known is it among scientologists L Ron Hubbard’s involvement with Jack Parsons and Aleister Crowley’s Thelema, from which he surely derived many of his own ideas?

    • Steve says:

      Not known at all. To even look into it would be considered an evil act. Scientology management puts out the stories on who LRH was and you applaud. The only other acceptable response is…. applaud harder.

  • Donna Edney says:

    I couldn’t find how to ask a question, so am doing it here.

    How did Vicki pay for all of the fees required to “go clear”?

    and #2

    Leah – did thinking your daughter would go through the things you did in Scientology play into your decision to leave?

    Thank you so much. You two are AWESOME!!!

  • Rebecca says:

    Hi Mike & Leah. Been following you guys since your show aired on A&E. Cannot express enough how much I respect the work you’re doing in the fight to end Scientology’s evil practices.

    On this week’s podcast, you explained Scientology’s view on disabled persons, which is something I’ve not heard you speak on before. I immediately thought of John Travolta’s son, Jett. I do not know of his official diagnosis but know he was born with some sort of disability. So, some questions I have are how was that handled/thought of in Scientology? Is this part of the reason John and Kelly were not treated as top celebrities? Were they looked down upon because of Jett’s condition? Are disabilities in children blamed on parents’ “crimes” or kept separate as something the child “pulled in”?

    (Side note: I would NEVER wish anything bad on anyone regardless of who they are. I can only imagine the difficulties that come with having a disabled child. Also, the passing of Jett and Kelly is horribly sad!)

    I understand if these questions are not something you can speak directly to on the podcast


    • Steve says:

      I think this gets to the dark heart of Scientology. From a Scientologists view: Jett pulled it in for past life misconduct. John pulled in Jett for similar misdeeds. And until it happens to your family, the common answer is that the solution is for them to “drop the body” (die) and then “pick up another body” and come back to Scientology next lifetime to fix whatever caused you to “pull in” this body.

      And with Jett and Kelly dying, other Scientologists will whisper about what Suppressive Person is around John that is making all of this happen. There is no sympathy, there is no compassion. There is blame and judgement from smiling faces.

      I don’t know how John rides both sides of that fence, but John was seen around and I didn’t even know Jett existed until I saw it in tabloids.

  • Julie Mennealy says:

    Whoever it was that asked if you were running out of things to talk about – being the reason for the Q&A podcast….SCREW HIM. I love, love, love the Q&I podcasts.

  • Christina says:

    These episodes are great!

    I have a question for a future episode- what was the reason for the music video that COD released in the 80sZ. Is it true that members were pulled out of the RFP to join?

    Keep fighting the good fight!

    • Steve says:

      Scientology is always trying to promote, so there was a time when music videos seemed like a good idea. I’d love to hear any behind-the-scenes from Mike on how senior management made those decisions.

      I’ve not heard that people were pulled off the RPF, that would be very unlikely unless they needed them to make an appearance for PR reasons. I think you’re referring to the fact that a bunch of people in that video were later sent to the RPF and some are probably still there decades later.

      The RPF was bad enough in areas where they were visible to the public. I can’t imagine what it’s like on a secure compound.

  • Sheri Lytle says:

    I have a question for the next Listener Questions episode, but I’m not sure where else to put it…

    I’m in Columbus, OH and I have a new Scientology Org in my city. My question is, what can I do to help? I’m pretty sure they have zero active members in Columbus, and I’m also pretty sure that anyone working there is assigned to be there and relocated from their home.

    How can I help? I’ve written the local politicians for that part of the city, but I’m not sure what else to do. I’ve thought about going inside (morbid curiosity is killing me) but I feel like I’ll be met with suspicion (rightfully so).

    What can I do to help anyone working at the org to get out?

    • Steve says:

      You should go in and ask for a tour. Ask if they have any kind of intro video to help explain Scientology. With any luck, they’ll put on the Orientation Film. At the final scene, begin laughing hysterically and continue laughing as you walk out. This will be easy to do, because the final scene is very (unintentionally) funny.

      That’s probably the best way to strike a blow.

  • Alice says:

    Questions: How much energy and $ is devoted to upkeep for the houses of LRH?

    Was Scientology as obsessed with owning grand empty buildings under LRH or is this religion as a front for a real estate holding company a Miscavige invention?

    • Steve says:

      Maintaining his houses and an office in every church building is nothing compared to the hundreds of other buildings they have.

      The amassing of property didn’t start until after LRH’s death. I think it’s done as part of keeping tax exempt status. They aren’t supposed to hold onto cash, so they keep buying buildings as a way of piling up wealth without appearing to be for profit.

  • Philip Lukau says:

    Hey Leah and Mike, such a big fan of all you’ve done exposing this cult. I am from Germany, and in Germany scientology is not viewed as a religion. My question is, do scientologists know that scientology is not declared as a religion over here? If so, don’t they wonder why? And why isn’t scientology arguing with the German government about this? I mean they’re arguing with everyone and everything that this is a religion and are not afraid to punish the SP’s. So as I understand the Germans are all SP’s, why don’t they come after us? Don’t get me wrong I’m pretty glad it’s not viewed as a religion over here, but I’m just curious about this.

    Thanks for all the work you’re doing. I don’t know you both personally but I have huge respect for you, I love you and support you a 1000%!!

    Greetings from Germany 🙂


    • Steve says:

      Scientologists view it as suppressive elements in the government when a country bans it. Also, it isn’t mentioned much, so Scientologists are generally unaware.

      However, in Germany’s case specifically, it was often said that clearly Germany hadn’t learned it’s lesson from WWII and still persecuting religious minorities.

  • Brandon Witter says:

    Finally watched “Game of Thrones” during covid. Finished in March, found Leah’s show on netflix and am now following scientology’s craziness daily! HOLY SHIT!!!

  • Brandon Witter says:

    Did Tom Cruise base his character Les Grossman in tropic thunder on David miscavenge ?

  • Carolyn Routt says:

    I have listened to every Fair Game podcast to date. I LOVE Mike and Leah’s insight into this bizarre “cult”. I especially get a kick out of Leah and her “unfiltered” comments. I am always listening to the show in the car on my way to and from work. This episode (#53) Leah started out by calling a criticizing listener a “Fuck Face”. I thought I was going to wreck the car I was laughing so hard!! What wonderful words to describe a hater! If you and Mike are ever in Louisville, Kentucky, please contact me and we will all go out for a drink. I think a night out with you two would be quite entertaining! Keep up the great work you are doing on this podcast. I will keep being a devoted listener!

  • Molly says:

    I have a question…
    I’m a preschool director here in California and we have very strict guidelines/policies that we have to follow in order to be in compliance and maintain our license. How is Scientology skirting around childcare licensing? I know Delphi isn’t a preschool, but I recall in one of the episodes of the aftermath Frankie saying that her son was in a scientology type daycare and how he was neglected so badly… I realize that was back in the 70’s or 80’s and maybe Scientology doesn’t have preschools or daycares, but if they do the state could come in and shut those places down.

    Even private elementary schools are required to have some sort of licensing

    • Steve says:

      That’s because you contacted those state agencies. If you just put a bunch of kids in a building and nobody calls the cops, there isn’t really a good system for catching that. I know many, many kids who went to these kinds of “schools” all the way until they were 16-18, and never once had a state required test or anything. This was into the 90s, I’m not sure what’s going on now.

  • Steven says:

    I was wondering if David Miscavage gets audited and who would have the balls to audit him. What level is he at? I’m sure he knows it’s a scam.

  • Amanda says:

    I have a question: its a sensitive topic though. How does Scientology tackle grief, more specifically, child loss? My toddler passed away and thinking of john travoltra’s son, how to you support a grieving parent while also believing that any trauma they have in their life- they created or responsible for? I know celebrities get special treatment, but do civilians get the same support and community as JT? Does grief even matter since their ultimate goal is achieving clear?


    Hi Leah and Mike! I love you! One of my burning questions is for Leah. You have mentioned many times that you did NOT raise your daughter in Scientology. I was just wondering… Why not? Was there always a part of you that knew it was garbage? Thanks!!!!

  • Crystal James says:

    For the next Q @ A. What happens when someone dies. Funeral? Cemetery? Family called? Hidden cause of death?

    • Steve says:

      Cremation is popular, to reinforce that you are not your body and don’t need a headstone to try to cling to your physical form. But there aren’t rules about this.

      Funerals are usually kept small and not talked about much. Often it felt like the only reason they had a funeral was because non-Scientologist relatives expected it and they’re not sure what else to do. Honestly I’m not sure what Scientologists would do if left completely to themselves.

      Multiple times in my life I found out someone had died because I asked about them at a gathering after not seeing them for a while. I think it’s a young enough “religion” that not enough people have died in it for common practices to have formed. Not to mention that it’s supposed to give you complete control over matter, energy, space and time, so I think a lot of the first generation thought they’d live forever. And they are now dying off.

  • Katy Moyer says:

    Is there a list of Scientology visitor locations? I would love to see a person actually say these things about psychology etc. First hand so they can see a person from the real worlds reaction.

  • Dominic Glynn says:

    Hi. Please could you do an episode about Scientology in the UK? Everything I have heard so far has been relayed to activities in the USA, but as Hubbard lived and “worked” in the UK for many years I’d love to know more about the organisation in Saint Hill in East Grinstead.

  • Fiona Sievwright says:

    Hi guys, love the podcast !!
    Is Scientology organised the same way around the world in terms of the sea org ( and it’s abuses) or celebrity centre or are these more prominent within the Florida sect?
    Thanks guys and keep on fighting xx

  • Antonia says:

    If L Ron had all of the answers, why would he be audited?
    And how was Kelly Preston’s cancer addressed? As I understand, she was a fervent Scientologist. How is her death explained?

    • Steve says:

      It was always said that LRH created techniques, which he would then use and have done on him, so he was going up The Bridge as he was creating it.

      I know some of the people from those early days, and they’d write out a new “technique” on a chalk board and then everybody would start attempting it.

      Kelly’s death isn’t talked about. Scientology is a cult of positivity. You accentuate any positive and ignore any negative. But the “cause” of her cancer would be that something was missed in her auditing.

  • Rae says:

    With an increasing amount of pro-Scientology social media accounts posing as Freezoners, what are the odds these accounts are actually church recruiters soft pitching to social media users?

  • The Dapper Downstat says:

    Love these listener question episodes! Here are some questions for next time (use any/all/none as you see fit):

    1) Mike and Leah, of all of L Ron Hubbard’s written policies, which do you think is the most bizarre? By bizarre I’m thinking more his off the wall rules, like the “phones are psycho” policy or his ban on registered mail, and not so much cruel and unusual…you guys have already done a great job exposing the latter category of policy!

    2) Is it true that Sea Org members can still only communicate internationally via telex because that’s what L Ron Hubbard said to use? If so, what is Scientology going to do once telex truly disappears from the face of the earth and there’s no longer anyone to support or maintain the system?

    3) Mike, how many of you execs who starred in the We Stand Tall music video do you think secretly knew it was garbage, and how many were all in?

  • Aaron James says:

    Hi guys, I’m a new listener and I love the show. A couple of questions:
    1- are the lawyers and PI’s who protect Scientology members of the Church or are they just doing a job they are paid for?

    2- what is the daily life of a Scientologist like? Is there any kind of formal worship or religious devotion?

  • Rae says:

    With a new surge in safety and health measures, has Robert Almbald had any success in further developing and implementing his clean ice technology, free from Fairgame antics?

  • Erica says:

    Can Mike and Leah discuss their thoughts on other Hollywood stars- outside of Tom Cruise and others who have had lawsuits- who are still Scientologist? Why do they think they are still “in?”

  • Debbie H says:

    Riddle me this…..

    I’m confused. If there is a policy that scientologists are not to read, listen, or watch any media criticizing scientology, how does scientology even know that it’s out there?!

    Is it safe to assume that, like Leah said about policies for celebrities, policies don’t apply to certain scientologists?

  • Gavin says:

    Is there much fair gaming in Australia? I am aware that the Australian religions and charitable organisations financials have to be posted online by law, but how does Scientology get about this?

  • sherry motcheck says:

    After listening to Leah and Mike and Vicki talk and reenact what goes on behind closed doors, and Leah looking for the BT’s, (and finding one behind her eye) my question is, how many scientologists are just playing make believe to appease the people over them and get on to the next thing? Or are most truly trying to believe what they are being told? Did Leah ever really “see” a BT? Or just make it up? I heard Vicki say she thought maybe she missed whatever it was she was suppose to have caught when she got to the end. My heart just breaks for her after all they put her through to believe she had ultimately failed.

  • Nikki says:

    I have a question:

    What is an E-Meter? I mean, I know what it is in terms of Scientology and how it’s used and what Scientologists are made to believe it is. But what is it really? Is it just based on regular lie detector tech? In terms of reality, what is it actually measuring, or is it just completely bogus like a toy or prop?

  • Steve says:

    How could one be said to be “clear” if they are riddled with BTs that are leading them to all kinds of destructive behavior? Did LRH create the OT levels only to give Dianetics the trappings of religion and avoid paying taxes?

  • Longtime WOG says:

    I have a question about the concept of thetans. A relative of mine received early levels of Scientology teachings in the late Seventies, so I grew up hearing about thetans inside bodies. I always thought there was just one thetan in each body, but I heard in this podcast episode that Scientologists believe there are many thetans in the body? If this is the case, how does this apply to the concept of degradation of a person due to a sick thetan? It’s it believed that only one sick thetan ruins the whole bunch within a body?

    Next, are the thetans in a body believed to be the same set of thetans during a human’s individual life, or do they think that thetans enter and exit a person’s body anytime?

  • Mechelle says:

    Hi Mike and leah, just discovered the podcast and I’ve been binge listening while WFT .. .. I’m currently on episode 22.. ive watched your TV show and going clear.. so I have sooo many questions I know you won’t be able to answer them all but I will list them below and hopefully you will get to one.

    Sorry if they have already been answered im currently on episode 22 of the podcast

    1) why do you think marty went back to scientology? Was the fair game pressure.. I’ve also seen ppl saying that he didn’t and he agreed a deal with David miscavage .. hes out living his life and still married….which makes me think something may have happened to him

    2) Do you think the scientology was LRHs way of dealing with his mental health having watched going clear I was surprised to learn that he reached out of help

    3) do you think Tom cruise and John Travolta are still there as scientology has broken them ( case in point that video of Tom with the black turtle neck and john wanted to leave after spanky did ) but they cant as there mind is broken and they have so much personal secret information on them that they feel they can never leave ?

    Mechelle from Scotland

  • Chayne Sanderson says:

    Can I ask why are all the top execs being held captive? What did they do?


    Chayne (UK)

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